INTERVIEW WITH FORMER TELEGRAM OPERATIVE ⟩ Anton Rosenberg Claims Pavel Durov Took Money From the Same Russian Oligarch He Criticized

The pre-moderation has not been in place on Telegram for years. I believe that many crimes are committed on the platform.

Telegram later explained this as caring for its users. "It's good for everyone if terrorists are found," they said. But if it was done in the users' interest, why wasn't it announced right away? And it wasn’t clear how Telegram defines terrorists. As is known, in some countries, those suspected of terrorism are considered opposition figures in others. There are many questions that Telegram has not answered.

The claim that Telegram did not cooperate with any intelligence agency is simply fundamentally false. For example, they have close cooperation with Interpol.

Interviewer: Have you noticed how quickly everyone rushed to make a statement on this topic? How do you explain that?

Anton Rosenberg: It's all about self-promotion. It's not the rarest thing in the world for the founder of a major company to be detained. Most of the commentary comes from Russians, which is understandable. After all, Telegram holds a special place in Russia. Although Durov is now technically a Frenchman. And he was detained in his homeland, France.

Previously, he claimed to have distanced himself from Russia and renounced Russian citizenship. But I read that Pavel still has a valid Russian passport.

Interviewer: Many point out that they refuse to bow to the censorship demands of states, regardless of the system. But refusing to fight drug trafficking is something else. They say that the owners of Telegram should have been more proactive in stopping criminals, rather than waiting for problems. Do you agree with that?

Anton Rosenberg: Telegram has access to almost all user communications. At the same time, Durov himself said in his 2017 article "Why Telegram Does Not Have Default End-to-End Encryption" that yes, there are secret chats, but the keys are also stored on the server.

Someone managed to translate the first version of this article into Russian. And the last line about these confessions regarding encryption keys remained in the translation. But in the original, that line disappeared.

The same is true of freedom of speech. When Durov launched Telegram, he wrote a letter in 2011 to Vladislav Surkov (then the First Deputy Chief of Staff of the Presidential Administration of the Russian Federation) that was just about business. There was no talk of fighting for freedom of speech.

Later, it turned out that posing as a fighter was good for business. Perhaps Durov himself started to believe his own words, but in general, he is not a person for whom civil liberties are important. But again, what he truly thinks, he certainly won’t say.

Interviewer: You say this based on your experience of working together?

Anton Rosenberg: Durov wasn’t particularly concerned about security issues when it all started. I once asked him why we don't implement a default password for everyone on Telegram, rather than just using an SMS code. He replied that it wouldn't happen because WhatsApp has one-click login, and every additional click is a disadvantage for users. This means that Durov was always concerned about audience size, primarily the Western audience. They pay well for services there.

Then came the statements about the lack of government control. But when pressure started to mount, the user agreements had to be changed.

Interviewer: Who applied the pressure?

Anton Rosenberg: I don't know exactly. I wasn't working with them anymore. It could have been Apple, Android, Google. He didn't do it of his own free will.

In 2017, there was an incident in Indonesia where Telegram was blocked after the management of the instant messaging service missed some important messages from Indonesia. Durov flew there, met with one of the ministers, and the block was lifted.

In Brazil, Telegram is periodically blocked, then some rapid movement begins, an agreement is reached, and the block is lifted.

This means that Durov's policy is as follows: as long as the pressure isn’t excessive, we won't make an effort. If a country actively threatens to block or actually blocks the service, we start negotiations, send letters like "Sorry, we missed your message." Maybe something similar happened with France.

Maybe they also missed a letter from France, which then escalated into a more forceful dialogue. Or perhaps the French took immediate action. Essentially, Telegram could moderate content more, but that would require additional money and staff. However, Durov likes to keep a small team so that he can personally control everything and trust those around him. Telegram has its own specific dynamics.

Interviewer: And this dynamic depends on Durov's psychological traits?

Anton Rosenberg: That as well. All external communication revolves around him. He makes the main decisions himself. Therefore, it's a separate question how Telegram will function without him.

Interviewer: Russian propaganda is almost hysterical, claiming that Durov will now hand over correspondence from Russian authorities to the West. And it seems that this is the subject of the dialogue with Durov while he’s behind bars.

Anton Rosenberg: The French legal system is one of the most reliable. It differs from the U.S., where they, for example, demanded the sale of TikTok. France is unlikely to demand the sale of Telegram from Durov using such methods.

In general, it’s possible that Durov will be forced to reach some kind of agreement in order to be released. He potentially has access to the mentioned Russian officials.

Interviewer: Were there any ideological guidelines at the beginning of Telegram's development?

Anton Rosenberg: At that time, we were all working on the VKontakte social network. Honestly, we initially thought it was just another project. Telegram was primarily a business plan: to do better than WhatsApp. The focus was on technology, and the ideology developed later.

Interviewer: Do I remember correctly that discussions about Telegram not complying with the Russian authorities started when Durov faced problems leaving the VKontakte business in 2014?

Anton Rosenberg: The story of Durov’s departure from VKontakte is highly mythologized. Initially, he fell out with Mikhail Mirilashvili and Lev Leviev, who together owned 52 percent of the VKontakte social network. About six months later, they sold their shares to UCP (United Capital Partners, a Russian businessmen's investment fund). UCP came in and started asking questions. Durov declared the event a hostile takeover and labeled the new owners as enemies.

There’s also a fact that no one has ever written about. Durov planned to leave the VKontakte social network in the summer of 2013, a year before the turmoil with the new owners. However, he submitted his resignation letter in the spring of 2014. A few days later, I found out that UCP was trying to gain control over the company’s American servers under the threat of a lawsuit. The servers were registered in the name of a friend in the U.S., to whom Telegram hadn’t paid anything, despite promises of great rewards.

Then Durov tried to re-register the American legal entity in his name. However, in the end, his friend in the U.S. sold that part of the business to UCP. His logic was as follows: 'UCP offers me legal protection, but Durov is simply asking me to give everything up.'

Upon learning about this, Durov said that his dismissal from the social network VKontakte was an April Fool's joke. By the way, I was the one who suggested announcing his departure on April 1st.

Afterward, he began writing posts criticizing all the participants in the story, including Alisher Usmanov (currently an oligarch under Western sanctions, the richest person in Russia, and close to Putin – editor’s note). The new management then dismissed him because they had his resignation letter but no statement saying it was an April Fool's joke.

However, Durov had a good relationship with Usmanov. And later, Usmanov helped him protect Telegram. Durov later sold the VKontakte data center in St. Petersburg to Usmanov.

Interviewer: So, Durov got money from people who are not well-liked in the West?

Anton Rosenberg: Yes. From the very people he himself publicly criticized. At the same time, he wrote posts claiming he was forced to leave Russia. This was part of a PR strategy. As a result, by the fall of 2014, Usmanov's structures bought VKontakte shares from UCP but agreed that all companies related to Telegram would be handed over to Durov. And they no longer tried to take Telegram away from Durov.

But Durov promised Usmanov things in return, related to Telegram refraining from competing with the social network VKontakte.

Meanwhile, in October 2014, Durov returned to St. Petersburg and began visiting the Singer House again (an old mansion on Nevsky Prospekt where the VKontakte office is located – editor’s note). And everyone continued to work on Telegram at the old address. Durov's former press secretary Vladislav Tsyplukhin said at the time that Pavel had returned and was going back to his old job. Durov was upset. Tsyplukhin deleted the post. But that doesn’t change the fact that it was true.

In the summer of 2017, Durov received a request from the FSB for access to the correspondence of terrorism suspects. At the same time, I published my article to defend myself in court (Durov demanded 100 million rubles from Rosenberg – editor’s note). And only then did everyone move out of the VKontakte office on Nevsky Prospekt.

Interviewer: Does this mean that the concerns of EU regulators, that Durov might be playing a double or triple game and could pose a danger to Europe in his confrontation with Moscow, are not unfounded?

Anton Rosenberg: Durov never talked to the team about his relations with the authorities. The well-known story of attempts to block Telegram in Russia in 2018 raises many questions for me.

In Indonesia, it was blocked, Durov went, negotiated, and the block was lifted. Telegram was blocked in Iran, but users installed VPNs, and everything worked. At the same time, the public movement with Durov’s so-called digital resistance only took place in Russia. This looks like a setup.

The most surprising situation, however, was in the spring of 2020. Durov agreed with the Americans not to create the cryptocurrency TON, and then a month or two later, Telegram’s vice president, Ilya Perekopsky, met with Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin in Moscow. And after that, Telegram was quickly unblocked in the Russian Federation.

Additionally, I know from other sources about certain connections, at least between Perekopsky and Roskomnadzor (smirks).

Interviewer: You mentioned that you had a falling out with Durov in 2017 and parted ways. For many, this explains your criticism of the 'holy freedom fighter' Pavel Durov...

Anton Rosenberg: This is a long story of a personal conflict... I can only say that Durov has his strategy: if someone resists, he crushes them. He doesn’t like or know how to show empathy, negotiate, and so on.

Formally, I was fired because I didn’t come to the office every day as stipulated in the contract. The team, which, according to him, 'wanders around the world without any base,' actually had to work five days a week (smirks).

Interviewer: Can we say these were Durov's personal complexes? Was he bullied as a child?

Anton Rosenberg: I won’t comment on that. I was fired due to a personal conflict. I filed a lawsuit for unfair dismissal. Durov almost always responds to such things in the same way – by filing a counterclaim. Allegedly, one of his companies suffered colossal damage because it was forced to stop working with another company due to my listing Telegram as my workplace on LinkedIn.

When I was threatened with a 100-million-ruble lawsuit, I had to make the case public. None of Durov's representatives appeared in court. It all ended with a settlement in which they met all my demands. They paid compensation and reinstated me at work. Then I resigned of my own accord.

Interviewer: Media reports Durov’s refusal to cooperate with law enforcement and the lack of moderation on the platform. Can you comment on this?

Anton Rosenberg: I believe there hasn’t been pre-moderation for years. I believe many crimes are committed on Telegram. I remember Pavel's sarcasm about how words and phones could be banned because terrorists use them. But other sites still take measures to combat these things.

As for the French authorities, they can’t file a counterclaim, as Pavel is used to doing. He’s accustomed to being able to do whatever he wants without consequences. Usually, he doesn’t end up in prison. Although there were a couple of cases worth mentioning in Russia.

There was a story when the media reported a letter Durov had written to Surkov. Then Durov drove his car into a police officer, overshadowing the scandalous letter story. In the letter, he had written interestingly that he had been 'working closely and for a long time' with Russian intelligence agencies, helping to solve crimes (referring to both the FSB and the Ministry of Internal Affairs of the Russian Federation – editor’s note).

Then, in 2013, Pavel wasn’t driven by ideology when he drove the police officer on the hood. Durov made a rude gesture to the police officer trying to stop him and hit the gas. His car was blocked near the Nevsky office. The office guard ran up and prevented Durov’s detention.

And this wasn’t the first such incident. Usually, everything was settled with relatively small sums of money. But there was a video of this incident, and Durov added fuel to the fire by writing that if you run over a police officer, you should drive back and forth 'to make sure all the tissue flows out.'

The Minister of Internal Affairs didn't enjoy it very much. Nevertheless, the case was downgraded from a criminal case to an administrative one and was later closed. 'In Russia, the key is to look arrogant,' Durov said at the time.

This approach likely doesn't work in every country. The Pavel I knew must understand that such behavior won't fly in France. On the other hand, maybe something changed during the years we weren't in contact. Or perhaps he just got unlucky this time.

Interviewer: After everything you've told me, it seems the man simply didn't understand the customs of his new country of residence.

Anton Rosenberg: Unfortunately, wealth often leaves its mark on a person.

Interviewer: Is it really possible to use Telegram to target weapons? Russian propaganda directly claims this.

Anton Rosenberg: Telegram allows for the automation of web bot programming, which enables it to work well even with poor communication lines. In theory, it's possible to program rapid data transmission via Telegram, whether it's coordinates or something else.

What surprises me most is that people believe in the security of communication on Telegram. The same person who designed VKontakte's protocols also designed Telegram's. Initially, they had the same protocols, engines, and databases. Yet everyone shouts, 'Don’t write anything on VKontakte; they read everything there.' But when it comes to Telegram, everyone believes it's inaccessible to anyone, even the developers themselves.

And it’s very easy to verify. You take a new phone, enter the SMS code, and you have access to all previous correspondence. This means that the correspondence is stored.

Interviewer: Could Durov sell Telegram if pressured?

Anton Rosenberg: He always publicly claimed that Telegram would never be sold. But in private conversations, he discussed the possibility. Now, the likelihood of a sale is increasing.

This whole story shows that if you make too many promises, you put yourself in a difficult position.