CONVERSATION WITH A SPY ⟩ Putin Has Doubles, But Even Ukraine Doesn’t Know How Many

Interviewer: Could you shed some light on what’s currently unfolding in the territories of the so-called 'People’s Republics' of Donetsk and Luhansk? From what I gather, this gray zone presents opportunities for significant financial gain.

Ukrainian Officer: Yes. There’s all kinds of smuggling, including weapons. Money is extorted. Everything is overseen by the military and the FSB. Policing functions are carried out by the National Guard (Rosgvardia), which ranks just below the military in importance there.

Interviewer: Have they already mobilized the entire male population there?

Ukrainian Officer: If we’re speaking specifically about the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, then yes, a large portion has been mobilized. At a certain stage of the war, there were many prisoners coming specifically from that area. During the eight years of conflict, they were subjected to intense brainwashing, which only deepened their hatred toward Ukraine. Every shelling was attributed to Ukraine, even though there were also attacks from the Russian side. They even bombarded residential areas just to provoke aggression.

Interviewer: Currently, all plans by the Ukrainian leadership to end the war aim to reach the 1991 borders. In your view, how realistic is the reintegration of this ‘republic’ back into Ukraine?

Ukrainian Officer: I think it’s unrealistic today. Aside from disloyalty, there’s also the issue of war criminals. Almost everyone there has someone who, in one way or another, was involved in the conflict, serving in the pseudo-state’s structures. There won’t be any amnesty for things like this, so if these territories are returned to Ukraine, hundreds of thousands will face punishment for treason.

All the loyal citizens left long ago; it’s impossible to live normally there—it’s a complete gray zone. Banks don’t operate, air travel is non-existent, and lawlessness prevails. It’s scorched earth with no prospects for decades.

Interviewer: Ukrainian journalists often refer to their sources when discussing the ‘republics’ of Donetsk and Luhansk. Where would these sources come from if there’s no one loyal left?

Ukrainian Officer: These could be sources working for money. The question is, how reliable is the information they provide?

Interviewer: Back in 2014, there was a phenomenon called ‘extreme tourism’: people from Moscow who were bored would travel to the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic to play with guns. Are there still people like that?

Ukrainian Officer: Nowadays, it’s not so easy to just enter the combat zone. It’s not just a checkpoint but an area under constant threat of drones, artillery, and so on. This isn’t about shooting at partisans anymore. As soon as any movement is detected outside the trenches, it’s targeted immediately—either by a shell or a drone.

Interviewer: Let me ask about a particular case. Estonia has a ‘prisoner of conscience’ named Aivo Peterson. He wanted to enter Estonian parliamentary politics but lost the election. During his campaign, he traveled to the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic. While there, he recorded a video saying, ‘Boys, let’s be friends.’ He was detained here, is currently on trial, and is charged with treason. He claims he didn’t collaborate with the FSB…

Ukrainian Officer: I understand the question. In this case, your intelligence services are entirely correct. The idea of a foreigner deciding to enter an active war zone, record footage, and freely travel around the so-called republic and Donetsk is on the verge of fantasy. The entire area is under strict control by the intelligence services, with a counter-sabotage regime in place.

Interviewer: What does that look like in practice?

Ukrainian Officer: It’s a series of checkpoints. You constantly have to show your documents for verification, explain who you are and what you’re doing there. You must observe curfew, and you even have a camera with you! What if a military installation ends up in the frame? They’re everywhere. Every passerby notices and reports it, and within two minutes, counterintelligence agents are there with a flood of questions, ready to detain you and either send you to the commandant's office—at best—or hand you over to the local FSB.

Moreover, as an Estonian citizen, he applied for a visa, which means the embassy was aware, and he clearly coordinated his route. He was assigned an attache to assist him with communication among the security officers. He was likely met in either St. Petersburg or Moscow and had a guided tour arranged. That’s the only way it was possible. A foreign civilian going into a conflict zone, where there’s a heavy military presence and equipment, filming—it’s impossible that this would have gone unnoticed by intelligence services.

Interviewer: We recently published an article about a young man who met a woman online from the Luhansk ‘People’s Republic’ and traveled to meet her. But he ended up being held in a basement under guard.

Ukrainian Officer: He probably traveled with a Russian passport, which wouldn’t have drawn attention from border guards. He didn’t appear to be someone capable of espionage or recruitment material, nor did he wander around with a camera or come into contact with the checkpoints. That’s the whole story.

Interviewer: The young man complained that they wanted to force him into the military. Speaking broadly, has your service encountered mercenaries from Europe, including from the Baltic states?

Ukrainian Officer: Those who were captured had fought on Ukraine’s side as part of the foreign legion and were later returned during exchanges. Europeans on the Russian side are more of an exception.

Interviewer: As far as I’ve heard, there are still some of our fellow citizens there. Not very many, but I think maybe a hundred or two. Perhaps they enlisted with a Russian passport, even though they were living in the Baltic states?

Ukrainian Officer: That could have been the case in the early stages of the war when they joined out of clear ideological conviction. But now, there are no more ideologues. Today, the primary motivation is money. Once people began to follow the war, seeing losses on Telegram, the initial enthusiasm quickly faded. Then partial mobilization started, and ordinary people off the streets ended up in the army. News travels fast—war romance ended quickly.

Foreigners first appeared to fight in Ukraine back in 2014. At that time, it was typical mercenary work: they came, fought, and left. There were especially many Serbians. Many were sentenced conditionally for mercenary work when they returned to their homeland.

Interviewer: How many Serbs were there? Thousands, hundreds?

Ukrainian Officer: We’re talking about hundreds. At least 500–600 people. In the full-scale war since February 2022, Serbians have been seen again, with Serbian being heard in intercepted conversations. There are certainly fighters from Abkhazia, and previously, Nepalis, Somalis, people from other African countries, Indians, and Syrians have also been spotted.

Interviewer: Are they de jure mercenaries, or what is their status?

Ukrainian Officer: “Mercenary” is a term often used in the media. However, today they are not de jure mercenaries because they sign contracts with the Russian Ministry of Defense. They receive ranks, their salary on a bank card—meaning they are officially soldiers of the Russian Federation’s armed forces. The question is how they were drawn into the war.

Interviewer: Are there alternatives to signing a contract with a recruiter?

Ukrainian Officer: Yes. For example, in Syria, there’s official recruitment, but in Cuba, people were enticed into the army under the pretense of being hired for construction work or factory jobs. Some were teachers, construction workers, musicians who thought they were coming to work. They were recruited through social media and job sites, received a call, and a plane ticket. First, they were taken to an area near Moscow, where they signed contracts in Russian without a translator, received uniforms, and were sent to the combat zone.

Interviewer: How do you fight with personnel like this? They don’t know the language and lack training…

Ukrainian Officer: They were brought in to supplement units—five to ten people at a time. After that, it was up to the commander and officers to decide what to do with them. According to our information, communication was done using Google Translate. Initially, they were given support tasks in the combat zone, like “bring this or that.” Then, they were asked to carry supplies to the front line, and eventually, some ended up in the trenches with machine guns. In the end, some were captured.

Interviewer: Were any of these foreigners professional soldiers?

Ukrainian Officer: Not a single one. Even the Serbians who were motivated to fight were ordinary civilians. But Serbians are a classic example of a mercenary type. Many were former police officers, members of criminal gangs—people who came to war knowingly and, unlike Cubans and Indians, understood why they were there.

Interviewer: Was this confirmed during interrogations?

Ukrainian Officer: Not only during interrogations. There are also documentary proofs, like personnel lists of units.

Interviewer: How do their countries of origin view such “recruitment”?

Ukrainian Officer: In countries like India and Nepal, there were scandals. When information about locals being tricked into fighting appeared in their media, journalists and relatives of those recruited raised an outcry. They appealed to their governments for help. For example, tensions arose between India and Russia. If I’m not mistaken, Russia sent the Indians home, including the bodies of those killed. After that, recruitment in India ceased.

There was a similar story with Nepal. Russians disguised Nepalese citizens as Buryats and assigned them to Far Eastern units. Naturally, they deserted and surrendered. Nepal’s story has also ended, with recruitment from there halted.

Interviewer: How does this all come to light?

Ukrainian Officer: Mainly, these deceived individuals ask for help themselves. Some Cubans ended up in the hospital, gained access to a phone, and sent messages to social channels saying, “Save us, help.”

Interviewer: Do you know if they are paid the same as Russians?

Ukrainian Officer: They are paid less, without benefits, and officially in rubles on a Russian bank card, which is opened in rubles without issue, and the money is paid in cash. Occasionally, they are taken out of the combat zone to rear cities like Donetsk, where ATMs are available, and they buy themselves some necessities.

Interviewer: But what if they want to send their earnings to their families?

Ukrainian Officer: I haven’t heard of any such cases.

Interviewer: So a foreigner in the trenches won’t be able to save up for a house?

Ukrainian Officer: No. In the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic, they are taken to special stores where they can spend their money, and that’s it. The hiring of foreigners became widespread at some point, and prices in these stores are several times higher than in the Russian Federation. Foreigners earn far less than Russians currently receive for signing a contract.

Even within Russia, the sums differ by region and depending on specific mobilization duties. In some cases, the one-time payment upon contract signing, the so-called support payment, can reach up to $20,000. Foreigners don’t get that, with a maximum of 200,000 rubles, equivalent to a private’s salary.

Interviewer: Do I understand correctly that foreigners are sent to the most dangerous front-line positions so that there’s no need to pay “coffin money,” and so forth?

Ukrainian Officer: It seems that a considerable amount of money is spent recruiting foreigners. There’s a network dedicated to foreign recruitment, with crazy sums allocated for searches, logistics, advertising, and the like. The main thing is to show numbers of recruits; the quality of these fighters doesn’t matter to anyone.

Interviewer: What about recruitment in the former Soviet Central Asian republics?

Ukrainian Officer: There have been isolated cases, but not on a large scale. People there know very well what’s happening and where they might end up. They understand the nature of the war and their prospects for earning money and surviving.